Coaching, Cults and Self Trust
with Amanda Testa
In this week's pod I'm jamming on all the things that make me fired up about the personal development and coaching industry.
Listen in as I share what I think the problems are, why psychological marketing and selling techniques are so effective, how to look out for your best interest and be an informed consumer, and what to avoid.
Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts,Stitcher or Spotify.
Complete transcript below.
In this episode you'll discover
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Amanda Testa is a trusted healer, coach, and guide who’s served hundreds of clients over the years with masterful skills in coaching, pleasure embodiment, and somatic trauma resolution.
Her clients tenderly heal their relationship with their sexuality, shamelessly embrace pleasure, own their sexy confidence, and cultivate deeply connected relationships with her fiercely loving support.
When she’s not leading transformative sessions, you can find her snuggling her spunky 10 year old, flirting with her sexy hubs, playing in nature, enjoying live music, and having epic conversations about sex with fellow experts on her Find Your Feminine Fire podcast.
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EPISODE 243: Coaching, Cults, and Self-Trust
Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa, and today I am talking about coaching, cults, and trusting yourself (finding your own truth), and I was inspired to do this episode because I know not all of you are in the coaching industry or even aware of this, so know, first and foremost, I’m a sex and relationship coach, and that’s what I love to do, but also, I am in the business of coaching, and I always, for the past three years, have been a senior teacher for a big coaching company. And so, a lot of the work that I do is around mentoring coaches and creative professionals as well as a lot of my clients are also coaches and creative professionals.
So, I just want to give you that heads up for this episode, but I think there’s value in it no matter who you are because, really, what it’s all about is learning to trust yourself and being discerning, right? And I think this is very important, and sometimes I think, okay, I’ve been in this industry for a long, long time, and I’ve learned a lot of different things, and some of them are, quite frankly, problematic.
1:07
Some of them are icky, specifically when it comes to sales and marketing, and I will just let you know that my background is that I was in business school in college. I went to The University of Georgia, and I studied business, and I was in sales my whole career. I was in corporate sales and marketing for 15+ years, and so, I have a lot of experience around sales and marketing, not to mention, I started my coaching business. You know, I started working for myself around 2010 and realized what it really takes to market yourself in a different way, and there is a difference between selling a corporation or selling something and selling yourself which that’s another thing that’s important in this work is making that discernment of you are not your business, right? Your business is something that you do, but it’s kind of just realizing they’re two separate hats that you're wearing, and a lot of times something that I see often is coaches or creative professionals will get really down on themselves if their business isn't doing exactly what they want it to do, they make it mean that they, themselves, are wrong. So just, first of all, I want to note that. I’ll come back to that in a minute.
2:10
Back to what I was saying is that I have a lot of experience in this, and I’ve been in personal growth and development, and I’ve always been passionate about this topic (being healthy, taking care of the environment). These are things that have always been near and dear to me since I was a young kid, and I even remember when I went to college and when I graduated, my dad was in real estate, and I thought I was gonna be a realtor and do all this and that, and I was like I just can't. I just can't be part of that development. Our earth and its resources are so finite as it is. I don't feel good about that. So, I’m just a passionate heart-centered person, and that just explains a lot of who I am.
But something that I’ve seen a lot lately in the coaching industry, and if any of you are in this industry, you might know that a lot of things are coming under fire with some certain big-name coaches. I don't even know. One of these people I don't even really know much about them, but I do know a lot about charismatic leaders, and I was just listening to a really good podcast from Glennon Doyle, We Can Do Hard Things.
3:09
You know I love that podcast. I always talk about it. So, they were interviewing this woman who had been in the NXIVM cult. So, just a trigger warning, we’re gonna be talking about culty things. That’s why I put the name in the title. But I do sense there are a lot of similarities between personal growth and development and cults, in some ways. And I’m just gonna preface this with there’s also a difference, right? There’s a difference, but what I see often happening is using psychology, using the tools that you know to support someone and using them differently. Some of the words this woman Sarah Edmonson mentioned in that podcast were it’s like the knife in the hands of a talented surgeon versus the talented surgeon using that knife for committing murder, right? It’s how you use the tools, and that is so important because something that even in the roots of online marketing, right -- in 2015 when I started taking my business to online marketing, I was like, “Well, yes, I don't know a lot about this. Let me learn.”
4:05
And so, as anyone who is a student in a seeking mode, we often want to search out all the answers. We go to all of the people that supposedly know the answers and we’re gonna invest in their programs and learn from them. Let me just tell you right now, sometimes that can be really good. Some people out there are really good and give really good information, and some people out there are teaching things that I think are problematic and predatory, and I want to speak to that because that’s some of the things that some of these people that I learn from that I’m like mm, that just don't feel right, and I think that right there is your first clue.
If something doesn't feel right, then you have to stop and explore what that’s about because I think there’s a difference between feeling a little resistance and being curious and exploring what that edge is versus being forced to push past what your body’s telling you, what your boundaries are telling you and overriding those sensations. And some transformational leaders use that strategy because they see it work and that’s one strategy.
5:02
I do not do that because I don't believe in that. I think it’s problematic, but I see it, and I’ve been in this industry a long time. I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve been through a lot of different programs. I’ve worked with a lot of different big-name people out there. Something I see in that as well is specifically when you go to an event, for example, and there’s this big-name person who is kind of getting everyone into a conference room, and you're in the conference room for three to five days (maybe even seven or ten days depending on what it is), and you are required to be there at the crack of dawn, and then you go and go and go with very little breaks. Maybe they don't give you a break. Maybe they encourage you to stay and, “Why are you trying to leave?” and bring you food in, and really just kind of get you emotionally exhausted in a way so they can reprogram you with things that they -- which are helpful in some ways, but predatory in some ways, right? The good is there but also the not-so-good is there. So, then, they get you into this state.
6:00
You're going, and you're staying late into the night. You're getting all pumped up. They're filling you with all the things you want to hear. They’ve heard all your deepest darkest things, and they want to turn those around and use them as fuel to get you to where you want to go, and then what they do is then they’ll sell you, right? Then they make their pitch. They sell you. That, “Oh, you need the next thing. You need the next level. You’ve got to be in my inner circle. You’ve got to be in the mastermind. You’ve got to do this and that because that’s where the answers are, and you’ve got to keep investing and spending your time and surrounding yourself with these same groups of people. That, my friends, is problematic to me, okay? I’ll say it. It is problematic to me. I don't like it, and I don't approve of it, and there’s a difference in having masterminds and supportive groups where you really are learning and growing and making great connections. That is a positive thing.
But also, I see sometimes in this industry that your ego is fed by the people that want you to buy their thing, and I know I probably have made mistakes in the past around this just practicing what I was being taught, and I have some regrets about that, but I really, truly believe I’ve never forced anyone to do anything against their will to override their inner judgment because that’s something I always -- that’s the number one thing that I work with clients about, specifically, because I do a lot of trauma resolution.
7:14
Working with people that -- you trust yourself first and foremost. You know what’s right for you. I don't, and I’m gonna trust that inner blueprint in you that knows what’s right for you, and that’s gonna lead the show, not me, not some grandiose idea of what I think I can accomplish. It’s like using the tools and things that I’ve learned, the knowledge that I’ve gained, to support you to your deepest knowing, not me putting my agenda on you. So, I just want to name that too because that’s something that irritates me.
But so, anyways, and so, what I’ve seen from being in that environment and from being in that system of, “Yes, I’ve got to go to the next thing, and I need to buy the next thing, and I need to spend all my money, and I need to get in debt, and I need to give them my credit card, and I want to be in this group because that’s where all the cool kids are, and I need that. If I want to be successful, then I need that,” right? We think that we need the next level, the next thing. “Oh, well, if you think this is good, then you need to be in my super high-ticket mastermind. If you think this is good, then you should see my $100,000 a year mastermind,” right?
8:07
And I’ve been there, and I’ve been in those circles, and something I see inside them as well is the exact opposite of inclusivity, right? It’s like you are surrounded by people, and you are in this inner circle. It’s like a weird inner circle. “We are the people that know all the things. We’re gonna support each other. We’re gonna help each other.” But what I do see in that, yes, there are amazing people that you’ll make good relationships with. That is priceless and some of the amazing friendships that I’ve made, but I’ve also seen the downside of that where it’s like, “Oh, well, these people think they're all the bigshots, and everyone else is a peon,” and so, it’s maintaining these hierarchies that are not conducive, that just reinforce these systems of oppression that I am against. And so, I have to speak to this because it makes me livid.
In 2019, I was at the pinnacle of that, and I really burned out. I was like, “This is fucked up. This is not right.”
9:01
Maybe I’m making money. Maybe things are good. But I don't feel good about how this is being done, and I was like, “I need a different way,” right? This is not gonna work for me. I don't like feeling like I’m constantly having to split my soul open and pour my guts out to try to make a buck. That’s not within my values, right? There’s a difference between being vulnerable and being authentic and using it to try to gain followers or using it to sell something, and this is probably -- my husband will joke. He’s like, “You're too much of a bleeding heart. You're not gonna make business. You're not gonna make money that way.” That’s not true. I do make money, but I probably am losing certain people because I refuse to force people and to make them feel coerced, right? I think being on the other side of that, it doesn't feel good, right? When you come to, you're like, “What the hell did I just do?” [Laughs] Right?
And this is what they teach you in sales. They teach you, “Okay, you want to get someone into a psychological state. Let them share their pain points, and then show how you can help them.” Which, you know, in some ways yes, that’s true. You can, but there’s a difference between using that to support someone and using that to manipulate someone.
10:04
And so, in these environments where you stay at one of these big-time events from a big-time guy and there are 10,000 people in the room, and you get exhausted, you get put in these states, and then you are encouraged to buy the next thing, and you see all these people doing it, and they're getting praised, and they're getting celebrated, and you're like, “Oh, that must be the right thing to do,” right? [Laughs] That’s the difference. That, to me, is a predatory type of thing versus using your tools to help someone truly come to an aligned decision, not like, “I’m gonna exhaust you. I’m gonna get you wrapped up into my indoctrination and then I’m going to sell you on the next thing and tell you there’s a limited amount of time and pressure you to make that decision.” That is wrong to me, and I don't like it.
So, I’m gonna say that I do not like it. I don't talk about this enough, but I need to because it’s something that I’m fired up about, and so, that’s why I’m doing this podcast today because I’m like I just need to freakin’ vent and get these things off my chest. And I get it. So many of these people do a lot of good in the world. They are well-meaning people. They have amazing hearts, and I don't like when the tools that are supposed to be used to help people are used to manipulate people.
11:14
And, truly, to be honest with you, the roots of online marketing are based in that information, right? Using those psychological things to sell to people, and the people use it because it works, but I think there are ways to share and to support people without having to use those predatory tactics which is one of the reasons why I’m creating the Come Alive Coaching Coven because I know how to do things differently, and you can be successful doing it. So, I’m just gonna rename that again. That’s one of the reasons why I did it.
But, yes, so, you know, we don't want to override our inner knowing at any time, and this is one of the things that I see. It’s like the number one thing that you need to learn in this world (and this is the other thing that Glennon was saying on her podcast which I love, and I am so agreeing with) is that there is no answer, right?
12:02
No one knows all the answers. We’re all just humans doing the best we can, and being behind the curtains, behind really big successful people or celebrities or seeing them and being with them, they're just like you and I. We’re all the same people. We all have the same doubts. We all have the same insecurities. We are the same, and it’s just trusting ourselves and knowing how do we want to show up, how do we want to trust ourselves. This other person is no different than you. This other person is not different than me. Someone who’s making a billion dollars is no different than you or me in some ways. In some ways they are. In some ways they're not, right? It’s just a kind of knowing. We’re all human beings. We all have similar wants and desires, and that’s why we can sometimes be preyed upon, right? We all want to feel like we belong. We all want to feel like we’re a part of something.
I was even watching something the other day, watching someone pitch another big-name person who’s an amazing, amazing person that I value a lot of what I’ve learned from this person and they’re just doing a lot of good in the world as well.
13:00
But then when I see the same kind of tactics being used and taught, I don't feel good about that because, yes, we want to inspire people and to encourage people and to get people to make decisions that are gonna be in alignment with what they want and where they want to go, and I think there’s a difference in doing that in a way that’s truly respectful and a way that’s manipulative, and I personally don't like to manipulate. I think that’s a big thing for me probably because of my own experience, whatever it is. So, I choose to do my business in a trauma-informed way and to run my business in a trauma-informed way to be transparent about all the things, right? Because I think that’s so important, and that’s what truly, to me, builds trust.
And so, needless to say, [Laughs] I’ve lost my train of thought for a second. Oh, yes, okay, so, when you're working with someone who truly knows about how to support you in a way that feels good, who’s not gonna push you beyond your own body’s sovereignty, to not push you past your own knowing, then that’s the kind of person you want to work with.
14:08
So, I just want you to -- the other message of this podcast is to really be discerning. Really be discerning. Trust yourself more than anything, and I know that can sometimes be hard, especially for coaches, and a lot of the people that I work with, or I’ve seen in business that have spent a lot of money or done a lot of things and haven't gotten the results they wanted, and they may lack trust in their ability to make decisions. So, what I always invite you to do there is to just not beat yourself up and kind of trust. You got what you needed in some ways out of that situation but also what can you do differently to feel better, right? Because I think that also happens a lot of times in the business coaching world where people are like, “Well, you just didn't show up enough,” or, “You're just not doing the work,” or, “Maybe you just need to do some deeper work around that,” right? Which, in other words, yes, in some ways that’s true, but it’s also like I truly believe that when you show up to something, you're gonna get what you need in the way that you can by showing up, and, yes, when you do the extra homework and other things that reinforces what you're learning and doing, but the act of showing up and coming to the session or whatever, you're gonna get what you need there.
15:10
The other stuff is gravy on top that helps you to integrate. And so, a good coach is going to show up for you and meet you where you are and help you get to the next level, realistically, and I think that is what is a really important thing. What is realistic and what is doable because, yes, you know, another part of online marketing which, in coaching, the business coaches, they're all showing you their flashy lifestyle or how they're spending money on this or that and that, to me, also just reinforces a materialistic capitalistic culture that I don't want to be a part of. Yes, I want to have money, I want to be able to nourish myself and take care of myself and my family, create a legacy that will encourage their minor financial comfort, but also in that, helping people who need help, supporting others, not just gathering and amassing things. So, it grosses me out.
16:01
This is a lot of my own opinion, so maybe you resonate, maybe you don't, that’s totally fine, but I just think a lot of this is coming up in the industry right now because people have fallen down that hole, and they’ve fallen down listening to the gurus and speaking the language and not trusting themselves and just going along with things maybe just to make money or maybe because it’s easy or for whatever reason, but not maybe holding the cleanest of spaces. And I’m very grateful to have amazing mentors that I’ve worked with that are incredible about holding clean spaces. It’s one of the things I love about Layla Martin, one of my coaches, and I’ve been on her team the past three years. That’s one of the things I love about Rachael Maddox, one of my mentors who I adore.
So, a lot of these experiences aren't talking about those people, but in general, I see it so much happening even from good-hearted people, right? Just seeing how they prey on what it is that you want so much when it comes to business. We all want success, we all want to make money, we all want to be successful, and we can't promise that to anyone no matter how good our teachings are, no matter what epic transformation we’ll offer, yes, some of the people are gonna have those epic results.
17:10
Some people are going to go on and up their prices to $50k a session or whatever they want to do, right? I don't think that’s necessarily the most fair thing to do. Whatever. People do what they want. People pay for all kinds of things so who am I to judge, right? People pay $40,000 for a couch. People pay all kinds of money for all kinds of things. People can choose what they want to spend their money on. They can choose what they do with themselves, but I feel like, yes, there’s a lot out there in the coaching industry around charging whatever you want and this, that, and the other, and I disagree. I think, yes, coaching is expensive because it’s kind of a luxury product in a way, right? This is not a necessity. I mean, it would be great if it was. I think therapy should be a necessity but coaching sometimes is really helping me to get to a different level or to learn something that can enhance your life.
18:05
I think a lot of it, yes, I feel like sexuality is an amazing thing. It can totally transform people when they get able to connect to themselves and have that confidence, but it is a luxury in a way.
And so, the other thing I’m gonna go back to that stood out to me about the cult thing is this is what can happen in those cult-like environments, and this is what can happen also I see sometimes in the coaching industry that’s problematic is this is a lot of it is selling the illusion of hope, right? Selling that illusion of hope. This is a lot of what we’re taught, but I think that what really speaks for what works is not necessarily just sharing your best success stories from your best clients, but the reality of all the things people accomplish. Some people go from having zero sensation to having orgasms for the first time in their lives. A lot of people do. Most people make a lot of steps on their journey to self-love, to accepting themselves how they are, to accepting their relationships as they are, to growing and being better and having more connection, all of that.
19:09
And so, I think that these are tangible things, and the same way with the business world, right? When you're coaching someone around business, it’s like creating that foundation, and oftentimes, when you look back at the past however much you’ve spent together, huge shifts have been happening in these people’s lives. A lot of them are monetary; some of them aren't. And so, I think that’s one of the things about disclaimers other than it’s important to share as a coach or as a person supporting people in this way is the reality: not everyone gets the same result, right? But what I do know is that when you are in my presence, you are gonna get love, you are gonna get presence, you are gonna get attention, and you are gonna get my best at helping you somatically move through whatever you're experiencing in the moment which that, in the end, is what’s gonna help you to be a more resourced human which helps you to do whatever it is you're doing in the world with more care and more capacity and that is some important.
20:02
I mean, I don't think that you can put a better price point on that, and I also think that being able to market in a way that feels good is important and that feels aligned with my values is important. And so, actually it’s not easy, right? It’s not easy. This is something I’ve been grappling with for the past two years, and there are some wonderful mentors that have been helping me navigate this stuff, people like Rachael Maddox, people like Kelly Diels, people out there that are doing good feminist marketing that is a different way. And so, this is why I’ve been so passionate to create something different and to teach something different because I know, ugh, if I’d only learned these things back when I was first starting my business, I would have been saved a lot of burnout, a lot of pain, a lot of self-doubt, and it’s not easy to build a business. It’s not easy to be an entrepreneur. Our systems are set up to support the big guys, (the big corporations, the people with money) and being a small business or an entrepreneur has its set of challenges.
21:00
And so, you’ve got to be real smart so that you don't burnout and that you continue doing your work in a way that feels good and doing it in a way that you can make money because that’s a big important part of it, right? There are so many people doing good healing work out there that aren’t getting what they need in return.
So, what I really strive to do is weave together what is -- I strive to teach my students and my clients that there’s a way to do things that are in alignment, and you don't have to prey on psychological marketing and doing things in a way that doesn't feel good to you.
Looking back now, like I mentioned, some of the trainings that I did, they do a lot -- some of the ones that I did from big-name people that have millions and millions of dollars sold, they encourage some tactics that I don’t feel that are great, you know, around encouraging people to get a second mortgage or to take out a loan. Those are the kind of predatory tactics that I don't believe in, right?
22:03
I want the people that are working with me to feel good about spending the money and not put themselves in a place of extreme debt or this is why I offer scholarships and other things to support people because that, to me, is predatory and wrong.
My apologies for the background noise, but I had to get this -- and I forgot I was doing laundry, my kid’s got a playdate upstairs screaming around, so [Laughs] that’s the real world.
So, anyways, just to kind of recap, I know I was riffing a lot on this episode because I’m very passionate about this, but just to kind of recap kind of the correlation that I see between some of this cult-like behavior, even just the language people use and the way that they speak about certain things is something to be aware of, right? And how maybe there are elements of good in those things, but also really being discerning about what is truly going to serve you and what’s feeling good and really trusting your gut. If anyone’s pressuring you or pushing you or, you know, making you feel too uncomfortable then that’s something to think about and really feel what’s beneath that.
23:09
Secondly, is that there are ways to market your business and do it in a way that is more trauma-informed, to do sales in a more consensual way so that people are really making the decisions from a place of alignment versus a place of coercion, and also, knowing that this is important when you are working with clients and when you're serving people is that you be an example of what you believe in and what’s true to your values, and so, those are the things that I strive to do, and I know I make a ton of mistakes because I’m a privileged white woman and I’m cis and I’m straight and I’m all these things that are privileged and I haven't earned a lot of this and I know that and I’m doing a lot of work to recondition all of those things too. It’s just a very -- it’s not easy. It’s complex and complicated, but it’s something I’m committed to so I will show up again and again for it.
23:59
So, I think, again, knowing that a good coach is gonna help you to grow, is not gonna push you to the point where you feel like you're going beyond what feels comfortable, and that’s the beauty of trauma-informed care, right? It’s like you dip into difficulty, go back to where it feels good. You go with the slowest part of you. You do what’s doable. You make those steps in a doable way, and I think when you can call in people in a loving and aligned way, then you don't have to use those predatory marketing tactics. You don't have to get someone holed up in a room for five days without a break and try to break them down mentally. Now, I get it. A lot of these things work and that’s why people use them, right? And the intention is that these people change and have a positive change in their lives, yes, but there are ways to do it that aren’t so painful, that don't involve those types of things.
So, I’m just giving you this episode to share about that’s why I created something different and that’s what I love about the Come Alive Coven and creating business tactics that create a business from a strong foundation without using these outdated things that I think need to be done with, just reinforcing the patriarchal culture that I’m not for.
25:05
So, if this aligns with you and you're curious to learn more, you can go to www.amandatesta.com/comealive and learn more about it.
I’d love, too, to hear your thoughts on this. If you’re a coach or you're in the coaching industry or if you're seeing some of the things that are happening out there that you don't feel good about, I’d love to know your opinion. So, please do send me a DM on Instagram. You can DM me @abtesta. I’d love to know your thoughts. How are you navigating this, and how do you want to show up in a way that’s different? What are the things that you feel like need to be said that you maybe are afraid to say because a lot of these things I’ve been afraid to say, and now I’m like, “You know what? I’m just gonna say what’s true,” because maybe I’m gonna mess it up, maybe I’m gonna bumble along, but, to me, it feels important to share what’s on my heart and why I do things differently and why I think it’s important to do things differently.
I so appreciate you for listening. Thank you for being here, and we will look forward to seeing you next time.EPISODE 243: Coaching, Cults, and Self-Trust
Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa, and today I am talking about coaching, cults, and trusting yourself (finding your own truth), and I was inspired to do this episode because I know not all of you are in the coaching industry or even aware of this, so know, first and foremost, I’m a sex and relationship coach, and that’s what I love to do, but also, I am in the business of coaching, and I always, for the past three years, have been a senior teacher for a big coaching company. And so, a lot of the work that I do is around mentoring coaches and creative professionals as well as a lot of my clients are also coaches and creative professionals.
So, I just want to give you that heads up for this episode, but I think there’s value in it no matter who you are because, really, what it’s all about is learning to trust yourself and being discerning, right? And I think this is very important, and sometimes I think, okay, I’ve been in this industry for a long, long time, and I’ve learned a lot of different things, and some of them are, quite frankly, problematic.
1:07
Some of them are icky, specifically when it comes to sales and marketing, and I will just let you know that my background is that I was in business school in college. I went to The University of Georgia, and I studied business, and I was in sales my whole career. I was in corporate sales and marketing for 15+ years, and so, I have a lot of experience around sales and marketing, not to mention, I started my coaching business. You know, I started working for myself around 2010 and realized what it really takes to market yourself in a different way, and there is a difference between selling a corporation or selling something and selling yourself which that’s another thing that’s important in this work is making that discernment of you are not your business, right? Your business is something that you do, but it’s kind of just realizing they’re two separate hats that you're wearing, and a lot of times something that I see often is coaches or creative professionals will get really down on themselves if their business isn't doing exactly what they want it to do, they make it mean that they, themselves, are wrong. So just, first of all, I want to note that. I’ll come back to that in a minute.
2:10
Back to what I was saying is that I have a lot of experience in this, and I’ve been in personal growth and development, and I’ve always been passionate about this topic (being healthy, taking care of the environment). These are things that have always been near and dear to me since I was a young kid, and I even remember when I went to college and when I graduated, my dad was in real estate, and I thought I was gonna be a realtor and do all this and that, and I was like I just can't. I just can't be part of that development. Our earth and its resources are so finite as it is. I don't feel good about that. So, I’m just a passionate heart-centered person, and that just explains a lot of who I am.
But something that I’ve seen a lot lately in the coaching industry, and if any of you are in this industry, you might know that a lot of things are coming under fire with some certain big-name coaches. I don't even know. One of these people I don't even really know much about them, but I do know a lot about charismatic leaders, and I was just listening to a really good podcast from Glennon Doyle, We Can Do Hard Things.
3:09
You know I love that podcast. I always talk about it. So, they were interviewing this woman who had been in the NXIVM cult. So, just a trigger warning, we’re gonna be talking about culty things. That’s why I put the name in the title. But I do sense there are a lot of similarities between personal growth and development and cults, in some ways. And I’m just gonna preface this with there’s also a difference, right? There’s a difference, but what I see often happening is using psychology, using the tools that you know to support someone and using them differently. Some of the words this woman Sarah Edmonson mentioned in that podcast were it’s like the knife in the hands of a talented surgeon versus the talented surgeon using that knife for committing murder, right? It’s how you use the tools, and that is so important because something that even in the roots of online marketing, right -- in 2015 when I started taking my business to online marketing, I was like, “Well, yes, I don't know a lot about this. Let me learn.”
4:05
And so, as anyone who is a student in a seeking mode, we often want to search out all the answers. We go to all of the people that supposedly know the answers and we’re gonna invest in their programs and learn from them. Let me just tell you right now, sometimes that can be really good. Some people out there are really good and give really good information, and some people out there are teaching things that I think are problematic and predatory, and I want to speak to that because that’s some of the things that some of these people that I learn from that I’m like mm, that just don't feel right, and I think that right there is your first clue.
If something doesn't feel right, then you have to stop and explore what that’s about because I think there’s a difference between feeling a little resistance and being curious and exploring what that edge is versus being forced to push past what your body’s telling you, what your boundaries are telling you and overriding those sensations. And some transformational leaders use that strategy because they see it work and that’s one strategy.
5:02
I do not do that because I don't believe in that. I think it’s problematic, but I see it, and I’ve been in this industry a long time. I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve been through a lot of different programs. I’ve worked with a lot of different big-name people out there. Something I see in that as well is specifically when you go to an event, for example, and there’s this big-name person who is kind of getting everyone into a conference room, and you're in the conference room for three to five days (maybe even seven or ten days depending on what it is), and you are required to be there at the crack of dawn, and then you go and go and go with very little breaks. Maybe they don't give you a break. Maybe they encourage you to stay and, “Why are you trying to leave?” and bring you food in, and really just kind of get you emotionally exhausted in a way so they can reprogram you with things that they -- which are helpful in some ways, but predatory in some ways, right? The good is there but also the not-so-good is there. So, then, they get you into this state.
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You're going, and you're staying late into the night. You're getting all pumped up. They're filling you with all the things you want to hear. They’ve heard all your deepest darkest things, and they want to turn those around and use them as fuel to get you to where you want to go, and then what they do is then they’ll sell you, right? Then they make their pitch. They sell you. That, “Oh, you need the next thing. You need the next level. You’ve got to be in my inner circle. You’ve got to be in the mastermind. You’ve got to do this and that because that’s where the answers are, and you’ve got to keep investing and spending your time and surrounding yourself with these same groups of people. That, my friends, is problematic to me, okay? I’ll say it. It is problematic to me. I don't like it, and I don't approve of it, and there’s a difference in having masterminds and supportive groups where you really are learning and growing and making great connections. That is a positive thing.
But also, I see sometimes in this industry that your ego is fed by the people that want you to buy their thing, and I know I probably have made mistakes in the past around this just practicing what I was being taught, and I have some regrets about that, but I really, truly believe I’ve never forced anyone to do anything against their will to override their inner judgment because that’s something I always -- that’s the number one thing that I work with clients about, specifically, because I do a lot of trauma resolution.
7:14
Working with people that -- you trust yourself first and foremost. You know what’s right for you. I don't, and I’m gonna trust that inner blueprint in you that knows what’s right for you, and that’s gonna lead the show, not me, not some grandiose idea of what I think I can accomplish. It’s like using the tools and things that I’ve learned, the knowledge that I’ve gained, to support you to your deepest knowing, not me putting my agenda on you. So, I just want to name that too because that’s something that irritates me.
But so, anyways, and so, what I’ve seen from being in that environment and from being in that system of, “Yes, I’ve got to go to the next thing, and I need to buy the next thing, and I need to spend all my money, and I need to get in debt, and I need to give them my credit card, and I want to be in this group because that’s where all the cool kids are, and I need that. If I want to be successful, then I need that,” right? We think that we need the next level, the next thing. “Oh, well, if you think this is good, then you need to be in my super high-ticket mastermind. If you think this is good, then you should see my $100,000 a year mastermind,” right?
8:07
And I’ve been there, and I’ve been in those circles, and something I see inside them as well is the exact opposite of inclusivity, right? It’s like you are surrounded by people, and you are in this inner circle. It’s like a weird inner circle. “We are the people that know all the things. We’re gonna support each other. We’re gonna help each other.” But what I do see in that, yes, there are amazing people that you’ll make good relationships with. That is priceless and some of the amazing friendships that I’ve made, but I’ve also seen the downside of that where it’s like, “Oh, well, these people think they're all the bigshots, and everyone else is a peon,” and so, it’s maintaining these hierarchies that are not conducive, that just reinforce these systems of oppression that I am against. And so, I have to speak to this because it makes me livid.
In 2019, I was at the pinnacle of that, and I really burned out. I was like, “This is fucked up. This is not right.”
9:01
Maybe I’m making money. Maybe things are good. But I don't feel good about how this is being done, and I was like, “I need a different way,” right? This is not gonna work for me. I don't like feeling like I’m constantly having to split my soul open and pour my guts out to try to make a buck. That’s not within my values, right? There’s a difference between being vulnerable and being authentic and using it to try to gain followers or using it to sell something, and this is probably -- my husband will joke. He’s like, “You're too much of a bleeding heart. You're not gonna make business. You're not gonna make money that way.” That’s not true. I do make money, but I probably am losing certain people because I refuse to force people and to make them feel coerced, right? I think being on the other side of that, it doesn't feel good, right? When you come to, you're like, “What the hell did I just do?” [Laughs] Right?
And this is what they teach you in sales. They teach you, “Okay, you want to get someone into a psychological state. Let them share their pain points, and then show how you can help them.” Which, you know, in some ways yes, that’s true. You can, but there’s a difference between using that to support someone and using that to manipulate someone.
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And so, in these environments where you stay at one of these big-time events from a big-time guy and there are 10,000 people in the room, and you get exhausted, you get put in these states, and then you are encouraged to buy the next thing, and you see all these people doing it, and they're getting praised, and they're getting celebrated, and you're like, “Oh, that must be the right thing to do,” right? [Laughs] That’s the difference. That, to me, is a predatory type of thing versus using your tools to help someone truly come to an aligned decision, not like, “I’m gonna exhaust you. I’m gonna get you wrapped up into my indoctrination and then I’m going to sell you on the next thing and tell you there’s a limited amount of time and pressure you to make that decision.” That is wrong to me, and I don't like it.
So, I’m gonna say that I do not like it. I don't talk about this enough, but I need to because it’s something that I’m fired up about, and so, that’s why I’m doing this podcast today because I’m like I just need to freakin’ vent and get these things off my chest. And I get it. So many of these people do a lot of good in the world. They are well-meaning people. They have amazing hearts, and I don't like when the tools that are supposed to be used to help people are used to manipulate people.
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And, truly, to be honest with you, the roots of online marketing are based in that information, right? Using those psychological things to sell to people, and the people use it because it works, but I think there are ways to share and to support people without having to use those predatory tactics which is one of the reasons why I’m creating the Come Alive Coaching Coven because I know how to do things differently, and you can be successful doing it. So, I’m just gonna rename that again. That’s one of the reasons why I did it.
But, yes, so, you know, we don't want to override our inner knowing at any time, and this is one of the things that I see. It’s like the number one thing that you need to learn in this world (and this is the other thing that Glennon was saying on her podcast which I love, and I am so agreeing with) is that there is no answer, right?
12:02
No one knows all the answers. We’re all just humans doing the best we can, and being behind the curtains, behind really big successful people or celebrities or seeing them and being with them, they're just like you and I. We’re all the same people. We all have the same doubts. We all have the same insecurities. We are the same, and it’s just trusting ourselves and knowing how do we want to show up, how do we want to trust ourselves. This other person is no different than you. This other person is not different than me. Someone who’s making a billion dollars is no different than you or me in some ways. In some ways they are. In some ways they're not, right? It’s just a kind of knowing. We’re all human beings. We all have similar wants and desires, and that’s why we can sometimes be preyed upon, right? We all want to feel like we belong. We all want to feel like we’re a part of something.
I was even watching something the other day, watching someone pitch another big-name person who’s an amazing, amazing person that I value a lot of what I’ve learned from this person and they’re just doing a lot of good in the world as well.
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But then when I see the same kind of tactics being used and taught, I don't feel good about that because, yes, we want to inspire people and to encourage people and to get people to make decisions that are gonna be in alignment with what they want and where they want to go, and I think there’s a difference in doing that in a way that’s truly respectful and a way that’s manipulative, and I personally don't like to manipulate. I think that’s a big thing for me probably because of my own experience, whatever it is. So, I choose to do my business in a trauma-informed way and to run my business in a trauma-informed way to be transparent about all the things, right? Because I think that’s so important, and that’s what truly, to me, builds trust.
And so, needless to say, [Laughs] I’ve lost my train of thought for a second. Oh, yes, okay, so, when you're working with someone who truly knows about how to support you in a way that feels good, who’s not gonna push you beyond your own body’s sovereignty, to not push you past your own knowing, then that’s the kind of person you want to work with.
14:08
So, I just want you to -- the other message of this podcast is to really be discerning. Really be discerning. Trust yourself more than anything, and I know that can sometimes be hard, especially for coaches, and a lot of the people that I work with, or I’ve seen in business that have spent a lot of money or done a lot of things and haven't gotten the results they wanted, and they may lack trust in their ability to make decisions. So, what I always invite you to do there is to just not beat yourself up and kind of trust. You got what you needed in some ways out of that situation but also what can you do differently to feel better, right? Because I think that also happens a lot of times in the business coaching world where people are like, “Well, you just didn't show up enough,” or, “You're just not doing the work,” or, “Maybe you just need to do some deeper work around that,” right? Which, in other words, yes, in some ways that’s true, but it’s also like I truly believe that when you show up to something, you're gonna get what you need in the way that you can by showing up, and, yes, when you do the extra homework and other things that reinforces what you're learning and doing, but the act of showing up and coming to the session or whatever, you're gonna get what you need there.
15:10
The other stuff is gravy on top that helps you to integrate. And so, a good coach is going to show up for you and meet you where you are and help you get to the next level, realistically, and I think that is what is a really important thing. What is realistic and what is doable because, yes, you know, another part of online marketing which, in coaching, the business coaches, they're all showing you their flashy lifestyle or how they're spending money on this or that and that, to me, also just reinforces a materialistic capitalistic culture that I don't want to be a part of. Yes, I want to have money, I want to be able to nourish myself and take care of myself and my family, create a legacy that will encourage their minor financial comfort, but also in that, helping people who need help, supporting others, not just gathering and amassing things. So, it grosses me out.
16:01
This is a lot of my own opinion, so maybe you resonate, maybe you don't, that’s totally fine, but I just think a lot of this is coming up in the industry right now because people have fallen down that hole, and they’ve fallen down listening to the gurus and speaking the language and not trusting themselves and just going along with things maybe just to make money or maybe because it’s easy or for whatever reason, but not maybe holding the cleanest of spaces. And I’m very grateful to have amazing mentors that I’ve worked with that are incredible about holding clean spaces. It’s one of the things I love about Layla Martin, one of my coaches, and I’ve been on her team the past three years. That’s one of the things I love about Rachael Maddox, one of my mentors who I adore.
So, a lot of these experiences aren't talking about those people, but in general, I see it so much happening even from good-hearted people, right? Just seeing how they prey on what it is that you want so much when it comes to business. We all want success, we all want to make money, we all want to be successful, and we can't promise that to anyone no matter how good our teachings are, no matter what epic transformation we’ll offer, yes, some of the people are gonna have those epic results.
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Some people are going to go on and up their prices to $50k a session or whatever they want to do, right? I don't think that’s necessarily the most fair thing to do. Whatever. People do what they want. People pay for all kinds of things so who am I to judge, right? People pay $40,000 for a couch. People pay all kinds of money for all kinds of things. People can choose what they want to spend their money on. They can choose what they do with themselves, but I feel like, yes, there’s a lot out there in the coaching industry around charging whatever you want and this, that, and the other, and I disagree. I think, yes, coaching is expensive because it’s kind of a luxury product in a way, right? This is not a necessity. I mean, it would be great if it was. I think therapy should be a necessity but coaching sometimes is really helping me to get to a different level or to learn something that can enhance your life.
18:05
I think a lot of it, yes, I feel like sexuality is an amazing thing. It can totally transform people when they get able to connect to themselves and have that confidence, but it is a luxury in a way.
And so, the other thing I’m gonna go back to that stood out to me about the cult thing is this is what can happen in those cult-like environments, and this is what can happen also I see sometimes in the coaching industry that’s problematic is this is a lot of it is selling the illusion of hope, right? Selling that illusion of hope. This is a lot of what we’re taught, but I think that what really speaks for what works is not necessarily just sharing your best success stories from your best clients, but the reality of all the things people accomplish. Some people go from having zero sensation to having orgasms for the first time in their lives. A lot of people do. Most people make a lot of steps on their journey to self-love, to accepting themselves how they are, to accepting their relationships as they are, to growing and being better and having more connection, all of that.
19:09
And so, I think that these are tangible things, and the same way with the business world, right? When you're coaching someone around business, it’s like creating that foundation, and oftentimes, when you look back at the past however much you’ve spent together, huge shifts have been happening in these people’s lives. A lot of them are monetary; some of them aren't. And so, I think that’s one of the things about disclaimers other than it’s important to share as a coach or as a person supporting people in this way is the reality: not everyone gets the same result, right? But what I do know is that when you are in my presence, you are gonna get love, you are gonna get presence, you are gonna get attention, and you are gonna get my best at helping you somatically move through whatever you're experiencing in the moment which that, in the end, is what’s gonna help you to be a more resourced human which helps you to do whatever it is you're doing in the world with more care and more capacity and that is some important.
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I mean, I don't think that you can put a better price point on that, and I also think that being able to market in a way that feels good is important and that feels aligned with my values is important. And so, actually it’s not easy, right? It’s not easy. This is something I’ve been grappling with for the past two years, and there are some wonderful mentors that have been helping me navigate this stuff, people like Rachael Maddox, people like Kelly Diels, people out there that are doing good feminist marketing that is a different way. And so, this is why I’ve been so passionate to create something different and to teach something different because I know, ugh, if I’d only learned these things back when I was first starting my business, I would have been saved a lot of burnout, a lot of pain, a lot of self-doubt, and it’s not easy to build a business. It’s not easy to be an entrepreneur. Our systems are set up to support the big guys, (the big corporations, the people with money) and being a small business or an entrepreneur has its set of challenges.
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And so, you’ve got to be real smart so that you don't burnout and that you continue doing your work in a way that feels good and doing it in a way that you can make money because that’s a big important part of it, right? There are so many people doing good healing work out there that aren’t getting what they need in return.
So, what I really strive to do is weave together what is -- I strive to teach my students and my clients that there’s a way to do things that are in alignment, and you don't have to prey on psychological marketing and doing things in a way that doesn't feel good to you.
Looking back now, like I mentioned, some of the trainings that I did, they do a lot -- some of the ones that I did from big-name people that have millions and millions of dollars sold, they encourage some tactics that I don’t feel that are great, you know, around encouraging people to get a second mortgage or to take out a loan. Those are the kind of predatory tactics that I don't believe in, right?
22:03
I want the people that are working with me to feel good about spending the money and not put themselves in a place of extreme debt or this is why I offer scholarships and other things to support people because that, to me, is predatory and wrong.
My apologies for the background noise, but I had to get this -- and I forgot I was doing laundry, my kid’s got a playdate upstairs screaming around, so [Laughs] that’s the real world.
So, anyways, just to kind of recap, I know I was riffing a lot on this episode because I’m very passionate about this, but just to kind of recap kind of the correlation that I see between some of this cult-like behavior, even just the language people use and the way that they speak about certain things is something to be aware of, right? And how maybe there are elements of good in those things, but also really being discerning about what is truly going to serve you and what’s feeling good and really trusting your gut. If anyone’s pressuring you or pushing you or, you know, making you feel too uncomfortable then that’s something to think about and really feel what’s beneath that.
23:09
Secondly, is that there are ways to market your business and do it in a way that is more trauma-informed, to do sales in a more consensual way so that people are really making the decisions from a place of alignment versus a place of coercion, and also, knowing that this is important when you are working with clients and when you're serving people is that you be an example of what you believe in and what’s true to your values, and so, those are the things that I strive to do, and I know I make a ton of mistakes because I’m a privileged white woman and I’m cis and I’m straight and I’m all these things that are privileged and I haven't earned a lot of this and I know that and I’m doing a lot of work to recondition all of those things too. It’s just a very -- it’s not easy. It’s complex and complicated, but it’s something I’m committed to so I will show up again and again for it.
23:59
So, I think, again, knowing that a good coach is gonna help you to grow, is not gonna push you to the point where you feel like you're going beyond what feels comfortable, and that’s the beauty of trauma-informed care, right? It’s like you dip into difficulty, go back to where it feels good. You go with the slowest part of you. You do what’s doable. You make those steps in a doable way, and I think when you can call in people in a loving and aligned way, then you don't have to use those predatory marketing tactics. You don't have to get someone holed up in a room for five days without a break and try to break them down mentally. Now, I get it. A lot of these things work and that’s why people use them, right? And the intention is that these people change and have a positive change in their lives, yes, but there are ways to do it that aren’t so painful, that don't involve those types of things.
So, I’m just giving you this episode to share about that’s why I created something different and that’s what I love about the Come Alive Coven and creating business tactics that create a business from a strong foundation without using these outdated things that I think need to be done with, just reinforcing the patriarchal culture that I’m not for.
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So, if this aligns with you and you're curious to learn more, you can go to www.amandatesta.com/comealive and learn more about it.
I’d love, too, to hear your thoughts on this. If you’re a coach or you're in the coaching industry or if you're seeing some of the things that are happening out there that you don't feel good about, I’d love to know your opinion. So, please do send me a DM on Instagram. You can DM me @abtesta. I’d love to know your thoughts. How are you navigating this, and how do you want to show up in a way that’s different? What are the things that you feel like need to be said that you maybe are afraid to say because a lot of these things I’ve been afraid to say, and now I’m like, “You know what? I’m just gonna say what’s true,” because maybe I’m gonna mess it up, maybe I’m gonna bumble along, but, to me, it feels important to share what’s on my heart and why I do things differently and why I think it’s important to do things differently.
I so appreciate you for listening. Thank you for being here, and we will look forward to seeing you next time.
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